Beliefs, Religion and Reason – A perspective of Hindu Atheist

January 27, 2009

Mangalore rampage and religious fundamentalism

Filed under: Uncategorized — Aniket @ 12:32 am
Tags: , , ,

The terrible incidence in Mangalore left everyone stunned yesterday – shocking and disgraceful.

Why militant faith is on the rise again? Where does this closed-minded arrogance come from?
Convictions about moral right and wrong and audacity to enforce them disregarding the law is the hallmark of such hideous incidences.
Who is to blame? Is it religious fundamentalism? or is there something fundamentally wrong about religion which suppresses doubt and demands unqualified faith in mythical dogma? Religion, by its very nature, breeds fundamentalism.

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21 Comments »

  1. Objective religion hinders several spiritual values that can be attained by subjective religion, but provides a basis for consensus. manglore riots is the indicator that the hindu society is being tried to limits of patience.

    Comment by A — January 27, 2009 @ 1:54 pm | Reply

  2. it is start of hindus seeking their rights. it is not fundamentalism as you deliriated. ever been to this place around hubli wherein seventy years of independence the flag hoisting happened just once. karnataka hindus are the most tolerant on this earth

    Comment by A — January 27, 2009 @ 2:00 pm | Reply

  3. where from did you get this statement. let see this. you do not subscribe to religion apparently. but you are too foolishly fundamentally adherent to distorted perceptions. so it is not justified to say that religion breeds fundamentalism. you too did.

    Comment by A — January 27, 2009 @ 2:03 pm | Reply

  4. @A

    1. Please enlighten us about the difference between an objective religion and a subjective religion? What are the “several spiritual values” that can be attained by subjective religion vs objective religion?

    2.What are the rights of Hindus specifically? What special rights does believing in a particular religion confer?

    3. It seems believers cannot argue a logic without ad-hominem attacks – “too foolishly fundamentally adherent to distorted perceptions”. And is it not fundamentalism on your part to say that “it is not justified to say that religion breeds fundamentalism” without proof ?

    I think aniket has given enough proof in this post to claim that religion breeds fundamentalism. Can you please prove that religion does not breed fundamentalism without making ad-hominem attacks?

    You yourself claim that these acts are hindus “seeking their rights” and yet you immediately contradict yourself by claiming that “it is not fundamentalism”? If someone is seeking rights based on his/her religion isn’t that fundamentalism? What difference then does the hindus have with the muslim fundamentalists?

    Comment by nitwitnastik — January 27, 2009 @ 8:06 pm | Reply

    • @nitwit
      you nailed it ….thanks

      @A
      ten random rowdies go to the pub and assault girls .. will u defend it? But you do seem to defend the very same act when done in the name of ‘hindu culture’ and moral policing …..this is exactly how religion blinds reason and objective judgment. Hinduism is no different ..

      Comment by Aniket Kanade — January 27, 2009 @ 10:52 pm | Reply

  5. Sri Ram Sena are a bunch of pathological lunatics just like some feudal goons seeking violence and attention in media.

    If hooliganism, street violence, moral policing and taking law into their hands are signs of taliban, then let us see who all qualify to be termed as Taliban.

    1) Mamita Benerjee dragged a SP MP by collar in Indian parliament. Has not she taken law into her hands and was as violent as Sri Ram Sena in the middle of India Parliament?

    She is female Taliban according to the definition applied to “Sri Ram Sena”.

    2) Both Renuka Choudhury and Uma Bharati are accused of publicly slapping men (we have seen videos), they both are taliban as well.

    So, what moral authority Renuka has got? He herself is partly responsible for harassment, arrest of 1,23,000 women with out investigation under one single IPC.

    She needs attention, which her father or bf never seemed to have given.

    3) Women’s organisations attacked arrack sellers and husbands in south India, they are also taliban.

    Banning liquor is taken from south Indian feminist text books only.

    If liquor is injurious to social life in rural India, then it is equally injurious to social life in urban India as well. One guy being drunk killed 4 people just 3 km from my home in Bangalore.

    4) Couple of women’s organisations broke furniture in Delhi High court opposing whistle blower justice JD Kapoor’s 2003 statement that “Dowry law is misused”. A lot of misery would have been averted if these Taliban were arrested and punished severely in 2003 itself.

    They are also Taliban.

    5) Sri Ram sena called the girls prostitutes.
    At 20% of 1,23,000 women were threatened about false cases of “prostitution” in Indian police stations when they were arrested under 498a.

    ———-
    If Sri Ram Sena is Taliban, then Indian Police is also Taliban. Ban Indian Police.
    ———-

    The Sri Ram Sena are just like children in comparison to the violent behaviour shown by Indian Feminists, Indian police and women’s organisations.

    =========
    There is no difference between women’s organisations and Sri Ram Sena. Both want to oppose “drinking” by beating up the sellers and customers. Both are Taliban.
    =========

    1) If a man drinks, he is a drunkard.
    If a female drinks, then she is liberal.

    2) Drinking in Pub is social service.
    Drinking Arrack in village is criminal activity.

    3) Arrack sellers have to be attacked.
    Pub owners have to be given Ashok Chakra.

    Only Urban morons have right to drink and murder people on road.

    What a double standard?

    =======
    Sri Ram Sena has to be banned, because they are Taliban.

    Before that ban all other hardened Taliban, who slap men in public, attacked arrack shops, broke furniture in courts, lied and mislead the country.

    Ban Renuka, ban Mamita, BAN AIDWA.
    BAN Indian police, for calling innocent women prostitutes.

    Ban UNICEF. Ban UNIFEM.

    If terrorist Taliban Sri Ram Sena and extortinist police and taliban women’s organisations are not banned, then people must be allowed to take law into their hands and beat up all these terrorists.

    Some 20 women are beaten and molested in Mangalore.

    The crimes committed by Indian police and UNIFEM funded feminists on Indian women (also men) are much bigger. Ban them all.

    ——-

    If a male MP dragged a female MP by collar in the parliament, has society reacted in the same casual way?

    If a male MP or politician slapped a female in public view, has the society reacted casually?

    ===========
    Crime has no gender.

    The social double standards are very clear.
    Female criminals get away, where as male criminals are put in jail.

    Today, being a female taliban is fashionable. After slapping men, these bitches are giving sermons on civilised behaviour.

    Save Indian family

    Comment by Sumanth — January 28, 2009 @ 9:27 am | Reply

  6. See, it is like this. The girls and the owners of the hotel, or the program conductors, felt that it is good or right or great to have a fashion program around. Then they went ahead and they did it. They conducted the show. The dominant culture that was here, generally does not want unbridled expression and assertion of freedom, and believes that they have to be respectful and careful towards them. Right.

    Then the program conductors what they have forgotten to provide for or atleast let the other side have a chance to debate about hte program and its social moral ethical implications. was shriram sena or for that matter any orginaztion that claims to protect dominant culture has been consulted and the issues have discussed?. Have the organizers done that? no, they just conducted the show. Now what is this. This is exactly the same word OPPRESSION that you have been shouting so far.what would government do or police perhaps when they have to face a situation wherein the issue cannot be sorted by peaceful means, they resort to voilence and that is what exactly did. this is just the same mechanism that the governemnt, law, or any god provides to the citizens, to make their voices felt, either by shouting or by the propaganda of deeds.

    there is difference between hindu fundamentalists, atheistic fundamentalists and islamic ones. the hindu fundamentalists, or say jewish or christian fundamentals would go to the edges of human tolerance and patience before resorting to voilent or rebellious actions or propagandas. but the atheist fundamentalists and the islamic ones, they start their every day there.

    there is too much of reason in religion. you know that and you will know that. I am not your messiah to tell you about the spiritual values that are to be found in your brain.

    but i want to tell you this point very clear. logically pragmatically ethically judicially and spiritually, shriram sena, acted out in the same spirit as the government or any force acts and they have acted in such a manner that they are only giving back what they got.

    Comment by St A — January 28, 2009 @ 12:14 pm | Reply

  7. your hypocrisy sans logical borders. you need to see that. and you need to see and evaluate the whole happenings and proceedings in a coherent frame of reference, you know what i mean, let me tell yuo this. this is india, which is the continuation of a civilization that is going on. i do not know if it matters to you or not, but this civilization means a lot to lot of people. now any cultural social or political movement that is against the trends of civilization and that does not align itself wqith the civilization is shunned as you shun bacteria and viruses or poor people. can you see that going ahead and conducting such activities without anysort debate or information exchange or having a consensus is oppression of the culture social consciousness and the civilization and the subjects of hte civilization have every right to act in the manner they acted. and not only that, let us say if a soldier is dead in a war, would you hold responsible someone that this guy shot him? no it is act of war and this is also.

    Comment by St A — January 28, 2009 @ 12:19 pm | Reply

  8. @A

    You didn’t answer my questions. But that’s OK. Fundamentalists who believe in God and religion don’t think critically about their beliefs anyway so it was to be expected

    The dominant culture that was here, generally does not want unbridled expression and assertion of freedom, and believes that they have to be respectful and careful towards them

    Oh so now one’s fundamental right of freedom of expression is wrong? That just means that there is no difference between hindu fundamentalists and the Talibans. And what is the unbridled expression here – girls drinking and participating in a fashion program? I don’t see these hindu moral police going and roughing up prostitues and pimps? I don’t see them roughing up corrupt politicians or police officers or government officials. So does that mean hindus tacitly support corrupt behaviour and prostitution? These hindu fundamentalist criminals only pick soft targets – targets that can get them publicity but not land them in too much trouble. Isn’t it?

    was shriram sena or for that matter any orginaztion that claims to protect dominant culture has been consulted and the issues have discussed?

    Oh so now a few goons and thugs are the protectors of morality and culture? What a joke. Why should the sri ram sena be consulted for anything at all? Did they consult the other side when they crashed into the hotel and beat up people? I don’t expect the hindu fundamentalists to understand the meaning of peaceful protest and educating people and buiding peaceful consensus to combat a social evil, however if you feel that they were right in their approach I don’t think we have much to discuss.

    just the same mechanism that the governemnt, law, or any god provides to the citizens, to make their voices felt, either by shouting or by the propaganda of deeds.

    Can you please show the exact law in the goverment or the religious book which says you can go and beat up girls for drinking or participating in fashion parades. And how is beating peaceful people up considered “making our voices felt”. That’s extremely brave and moral isn’t it?

    there is difference between hindu fundamentalists, atheistic fundamentalists and islamic ones. the hindu fundamentalists, or say jewish or christian fundamentals would go to the edges of human tolerance and patience before resorting to voilent or rebellious actions or propagandas. but the atheist fundamentalists and the islamic ones, they start their every day there.

    Was that a joke? If it was, I commend you on your sense of humour. So you mean the fundamentalists come in different shades? Oh yes, The hindus are the most exalted, most benevolent, most kind right? The news article above clearly shows that it takes much less than being pushed to the edge for hindu fundamentalist to show their true colors.

    And how many Christian and jewish fundamentalist organizations have you come across to say that. Please read up on Christian history and christian fundamentalists in Christian majority country and you will know that it is hardly the case.

    Btw, what exactly do you mean by atheist fundamentalist?Can you give us some examples from recent history to prove your point.

    there is too much of reason in religion

    I am starting to appreciate your sense of humor, kind sir. Reason and religion shouldn’t even be in the same sentence.

    logically pragmatically ethically judicially and spiritually, shriram sena, acted out in the same spirit as the government

    can you please elaborate. The fact that the goverment didn’t act means that your assertion is false. What is logically pragmatically ethically judicially and spiritually wrong with girls drinking or participating in fashion shows? I do expect a logical answer and not something like “I can’t explain it to you” or it’s many variants.

    this is india, which is the continuation of a civilization that is going on. i do not know if it matters to you or not, but this civilization means a lot to lot of people. now any cultural social or political movement that is against the trends of civilization and that does not align itself wqith the civilization is shunned as you shun bacteria and viruses or poor people.

    poor people is considered in the same category as virus and bacteria? I can’t believe I read it. Wow !!! elitist much ? Was that a statement by an exalted hindu also?

    Btw, What do you mean exatly by “Indian civilization”? And WHY should we hold on to prehistoric, bronze age social customs. What part of hindu “civilization” are we talking about here – the practice of sati, child marriage, polygamy, caste system or is it the great progress Indians made in the fields of science, arts, architecture etc. If it’s the latter I am also extremely proud of it too but I can’t say the same for the former.

    Btw, what part of the hindu cultural “continuation of civilization” figures into the wearing of western clothes, using western inventions like the internet, cars, telephones etc, or using life saving medicines invented in western countries.

    What part of the hindu social “continuation of civilization” figures in the illiteracy, poverty, disease and corruption that we see so rampant in India today. How has blind belief to religious dogmas in “hindu civilization” made our lives any better today?

    Comment by nitwitnastik — January 28, 2009 @ 1:32 pm | Reply

  9. @Aniket,
    I am sorry if my comments were sent multiple times to you.I was getting a 500 : internal server error and was trying to post my comment over and over again. It did publish but it may have been sent multiple times to you. Sorry about that.

    Comment by nitwit Nastik — January 28, 2009 @ 1:41 pm | Reply

  10. @nitwit
    Nah! no probs … that error was genuine I guess.
    I got it only once.

    Comment by Aniket — January 28, 2009 @ 10:55 pm | Reply

  11. that is cool. you need not be sorry about posting many times. it is welcome. keep the debate going it is great. i might say a hard word or two. but definitely did not mean such. some times, if i seem to hurt by way of words, i am sorry.

    i told you what is truth and what is right is what you need to find out for yourself. yes indian civilization meaning hindu civilization (HC).

    as for the rampant poverty, you need tpo understand that HC is being looted for around a 1000 years adn it takes time to build and believe me, all the congress ggovernment did is just destroy it more. we are never given a chance to seriously build our civilization as the jews or muslims or chrisitians did or doing. you give us an opportunity for 10 years, and we will provide you all a just place in this wolrd. when we shout, islam this and that, it is onyl to get noticed and to get our communications across, even the increasing voilence is basically a propaganda. it is a social statement, a different one, because the media and the government will not even listen to peaceful protests happening around.

    the jihadis believe that the final solution is to kill all kafirs. and they are doing it. but we like several other (psuedo/quasi) organizations, we do not accept any killing as the final solution. they are taking to violence just for the sole reason, that that is the only way, when the dumb media and governments can listen to their words. and believe me when HC is given a chance, I am pretty sure that muslims, chrisitians,, atheists, every body, all diversity can live peacefully without corruption, and without imparitality and lead your life on the tenets you believe in.

    frankly, you know that you are using hte word fundamentalist or fundamentalism in a rather inappropriate manner. probably the word you wanted to use is bigot. every who believes in certain core principles and tenets, (keep all philosophy and theology aside) are fundamentalists, they want every thing to stand on some basis, some fundamentals, so a mathematician, a thoughtly{!!?? is there such a word) atheist, or communist, or capitalist, or any human who adheres to a certain ways are funamentalists, i am one.

    see poor people use there is more or less poetic. no heart feelings about that, but you are in canada? toronto, ottawa? work for royal bank of canada? or rbs? definitely if you happen to visit a poor neighborhood and you watch your feelings. be true to yourself, and see what i mean?

    it is wrong. it is that hte philosophy of newtonian sciences, might make it impossibel for the unification of science, religion, art, and humanities. but with the evolving quantum ideas, and the subjective interpretations and subjective universes, at the firsdt sight might make achieving objectivity (as in a consonance or mutual accord) a distant utopia, but the very innate nature of hte life and hte universe and specially the brain and mind, makes it a reality.

    it is like that. i do not know your blue. you do not know my red. and we can never know osama’s yellow. but the people who study the brain and mind, you know, scientifically are drawing amazing results. they are on the verge of saying that my yellow is your yellow and in fact, given a humanly mind, the yellow’s internal interpretation and representations are same. and similar arguments are put forward by linguists such as noam chomsky nad others.

    the physicists the believe that the universe is sort of fine-tuned for humanly life, the evolutionists believe that the consciousness has to evolve. look at the history, around 70-30 incidence ratio is given to dialectic:spiritual historisism(if there could be a word like that).

    and please forgive hte typos. just woke up. did not even have a smoke or tea you know 🙂

    Regards,
    St A

    Comment by a st — January 29, 2009 @ 1:32 am | Reply

  12. and i do not care for other civilizations. i believe that in india and by continuation of the hindu civilization i feel it is possible to create a utopia, a new world order and provide the world, the spiritual basis the world needs, and help the global civilization. so i do not care about other civilizations that existed, or that are existing, or will exist in the future.

    Comment by a st — January 29, 2009 @ 1:36 am | Reply

  13. Typos are okay, thoughts are disturbing.
    There is only one civilization – human civilization. All other racial/cultural/geographic subdivisions essentially denigrate its grandeur and promote hatred borne of ideology of racial/religious/cultural supremacy.

    Comment by Aniket — January 29, 2009 @ 9:13 pm | Reply

  14. i believe that in india and by continuation of the hindu civilization i feel it is possible to create a utopia, a new world order and provide the world, the spiritual basis the world needs, and help the global civilization

    I don’t think you have thought through what you are saying. What makes you so sure that it will be a utopia under a hindu civilization? Hindus had their chance to create a utopia much before most other religions. Why couldn’t they create one then? What in reality happened was caste system and untouchability, polygamy, child marriage, sati etc. which clearly proves that hinduism as a religion is as flawed as any other.

    Comment by Nitwit Nastik — January 29, 2009 @ 11:30 pm | Reply

  15. no. human civilization is an abstract conception. and in reality this is but a union of the various interacting (can be non interacting too) civilizations. i see that you tend to be the very average person, who tends to see what is wrong and never look at any other thing. have you ever tried to find something good. there is good and bad in all. the negativity of a religion and specially hindu religion will also be addressed and we will try to achieve a egalitarian system, meaning as egalitarian as possible. all those things i am pretty sure, did not exist in the hindu theories and good practices suggestions, but are rather the products of corrupted minds and corrupted people (i am saying corrupted hindus). but if you look at it, the rest of the hindu philosophy gives a pretty good stand point for a very big civilization which is a part of the “Global Civilization” that we are building and will eventually build.

    if you say that 1500 years of oppression is a good time to build HC, you are rather too narrow or too optimistic in your outlook. the jews who are rebuilding their civilization once again now, are seen to be the first neo civilizations that are restructured and reconstructed as a part of the global civilization. they were clear about what they had to do. they did not buy crap like secularism. A jew in himself is secular. christian hindu buddhist inca maya and even islam are secular in outlook. but we were sold out to nehrus and gandhis,.. are the rest of india dead, the hindus, the brahmins, the islamic, the chrisitan, the parsis, the dalits, the north easts, are all these guys dead that we have to follow a nasty dynasty?

    you felt alarmed at the thoughts that i shared with you. you should be rechecking your philosophy and facts first.

    i am pretty sure that hinduism will come out of all negative things, or as many -ve things as possible and shall be the basis of the new world that we are building (or dream to build around) and it is not a mutually exclusive world. we believe that the whole universe is one family. compare this to conceptions like “kingdom of god”, “universal brotherhood”(what about sisterhood).

    Comment by A st — January 30, 2009 @ 1:03 am | Reply

  16. @Anarchist

    You are probably too stoned, drunk or sleepy to realize that there are 2 people commenting here. It’s difficult to make out from your comments whom you are adressing. I am not the author of this blog and I didn’t offer my apologies to you in my previous post. So next time it would help if you clarify whom you are adressing.

    It seems you are fond of accusing anyone who finds faults with your baseless logic as being average. That is the hallmark of people who cannot provide sound logic to back up their vacuous claims but instead try to demean the person.

    Before we proceed, please clarify what you mean by a hindu civilization. I doubt if you have even read a single book of hinduism or any religion for that matter. Please read the manu smriti and then we can discuss whether it is corrupted people or product of a body of knowledge Hindus derive their social and moral laws from that is to be blamed for the divisions in hindu society.

    Btw, your claim that

    the negativity of a religion and specially hindu religion will also be addressed and we will try to achieve a egalitarian system, meaning as egalitarian as possible

    Sounds like delusions of grandeur. How will you address this negativity and how will you make or force people to follow your rules ? Your statement sounds more like a socialist doctrine and we all know what happened to that.What makes you so sure that hinduism will come out of all negativity. What stopped hinduism from doing it before or even now?

    we believe that the whole universe is one family

    If you truly believe that the universe is a family then why do you want a hindu civilization. Why don’t you allow your family members to follow what they want?

    Comment by nitwitnastik — January 30, 2009 @ 2:21 am | Reply

  17. Quite honestly it was a bunch of illiterate unemployed people with nothing better to do trying to create a political statement and gain political mileage. Culture Schmulture….

    Comment by Allytude — February 15, 2009 @ 11:08 am | Reply

  18. quite frankly it does not matter how many are commenting. there aint seem to be any individuation in both of you, or you all must be having one mind and one soul in two bodies and four hands. anyways it not my concern. as far as i am concerned, you both or you three or all of you sing the same song. given a world, we want our civilization and that is very imperative, you want to live the life like your civilization, you can but not here. generally speaking we see such a thing as mismanagement of resources and we see that resources are pretty scarce. you seem to be a fool very literally or you both seem to be one fool. i am open to debate and i can prove my points, the question to ask is are you willing to abide by a coherent yard stick of logic, or what is that you will do if i prove you things. could you be of any consequence to anything existing? you need to ask yourself, basically what the fuck are you and what the fuck can you do, before you actually make statements, and axiological comments. in my idea, you are some rotund obese creature, sitting in some couch, drinking sodas and must be impressing your girl friend with all the shit, you got. basically a traitor, a person, who has traited his fellowkind.

    Comment by A — February 15, 2009 @ 10:30 pm | Reply

  19. “basically what the fuck are you and what the fuck can you do, before you actually make statements, and axiological comments. in my idea, you are some rotund obese creature, sitting in some couch, drinking sodas and must be impressing your girl friend with all the shit, you got. basically a traitor, a person, who has traited his fellowkind.”

    haha…case in point…look at that logic and language…THIS is exactly the evidence we needed to prove the greatness of the Hindu Civilization and intellect

    Btw, I didn’t know drinking soda and impressing girl-friends counted as being a traitor who “traited” his fellowkind. Thanks for the logical conclusion Sir. I wouldn’t have been able to figure it out myself. LOL !!

    Btw, I wrote a post for recognizing people like you..here it is for your enjoyment

    http://nitwitnastik.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/top-10-signs-you-are-a-hindu-fanatic/

    Comment by Nitwit Nastik — February 15, 2009 @ 11:37 pm | Reply

  20. Yo Brothers

    Looks like thehinduatheist.wordpress.com justmight be a wicked forum for me
    I am content to have discovered it.

    Who knows what happens next… All I know is: Save the whales. Collect the whole set :

    Lol!

    Anybody into Tetris

    Looking forward to a good long stay here!

    New Jersey,Port Reading

    Comment by Camellia (CSP ) Loften — September 22, 2010 @ 3:20 am | Reply


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